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DevBlog > post

Follow-up to Tot's intervention

by Zidrune - Tuesday September 29, 2009 27 commentaries

One big month without any news on the devblog, it's certainly been a while. Why such a long absence? Well, for the past three weeks, a conversation has been taking place on the French Wakfu forum between Tot and the players discussing the evolution of the game. For those who missed the fun, and to spare you reading through 26 pages in French, here is a summary of the main points followed by an update about the next patch.

Firstly, it is important to remember what we have been working on for several months: the combat system. Even if this feature will not necessarily make Wakfu THE original game you are expecting, it is essential that it is well built and it is one of the most complicated features to implement. Some more specific examples that we have reworked or will rework:

  • States: We want to give them great importance in fights and to do that we need to make them clearer visually. We need to know who is in the grip of what state a quick glance (stars spinning above a character would make it clear).
  • Spheres of combat: We're going to rework them. Not straight away, but it's planned and scheduled.
  • Monsters: We will rework all of the monster families one by one to make them more "intelligent". We have also reduced the excessive number of species per family as we were getting nowhere with them.

 

We're also working in parallel on many other points and Tot has clarified some of the regularly recurring issues on the forum.

  • Incarnam: You have discovered the first step of the tutorial and learnt more about the origins of Wakfu through the magnificent frescoes of Ben Piwate and Sephy. There are still many things to include and correct (the remarks on the forum have been noted ;) ), but we've kept a few surprises to make this tutorial more fun and memorable.
  • Clan Members: This is a big piece of work, and big pieces of work take a long time to finish. Animations, balancing, AI, new options to add... Not everything needs re-working, but we know that we've started on a large project. We will take as long as it takes to get it all done.
  • The islands all look the same: We've talked about this already on the devblog, there are 5 archipelagos in the world of Wakfu: Amakna, Astrub, Bonta, Brakmar and Sufokia. Each archipelago looks very different to the others. There will be 4 governable islands and a central island. The fact that the 4 governable islands resemble each other comes from us not wanting to put certain nations at a disadvantage. However, the central island will look different to its little neighbours.
  • Multi-cell monsters: Tot raised the possibility that Kam might be able to work on monsters that take up 9 cells. Well, it's no longer a possibility, it's a fact! I've only got one thing to say: they'll be a feast for the eyes!
  • Ecosystem: Again, like what's happening in Ankama's basement, there's a large amount of work to do here. For each new monster is not just a punching-ball that we have to think about, but a living being, interacting with its environment.
  • Emotes: Character illustrations based on the smileys you type into the chat, that's Xa crazy idea. As such, even before reading your partner's words, you'll know their mood.
  • Mounts: Will they be delayed as much as they were in Dofus? An excellent question from Dreking. The system is consistent with that of monster breeding (which will allow endangered species to be preserved). At the moment, we're brainstorming the subject. And believe me when I say we're not lacking in ideas that will be really worth the effort!
  • Snow in Wakfu?Not for this Kwismas but Tot has clearly expressed his desire to see the lands of Amakna covered in white powder. We don't want our artists to work on it straight away, but you can look forward to being able to make snowmen one day.
  • Why aren't there any houses in-game, only ruins? Eventually, players will be able to construct their buildings, part of Amakna island is also reserved for this purpose. Tot would like you to discuss this subject and is currently putting together a little explanation of what we've got planned.
  • Banks? We still don't see the point in introducing them into the game. Chests are available to furnish the personal room of your Haven-Bag. Why give money to someone else when you can keep it comfortably on your back?

 

After this larger-than-I-was-expecting summary, let's talk about up-coming content. Tomorrow, Sacriers will land on the Amakna archipelago, and the Larva Dungeon returns as well.

We're preparing a more substantial update for the 15th October, with central island of Amakna to discover, its monster families, its giant monsters, its challenges, new dungeons and more surprises that we'll have the opportunity to discuss over the coming weeks. All this will be accompanied by the possibility of levelling your character to 100. However, it would seem that Srams are going to have a little bit longer to wait than initially thought, I'll tell you more next week.

To finish, and to stop the numerous private messages that are filling our moderators and staff members' inboxes, here's the order in which the next classes will/should arrive: Sacrier, Sram/Xelor, Feca, Pandawa, Sadida, Enutrof and finally Osamodas

your commentaries
I would like to know what you intend to do about the fact that each patch creates more bugs than it fixes. It's not just small bugs. The AI of many monsters are now broken. They worked fine in Closed Beta. That is just one example of serious problems created by patches. Do you even test the patches before releasing them?
By Geki-Killer 29.September.2009 - 13:51
Geki is right, what we need now is to have the bugs and glitches that currently exist FIXED before anything else is added...
By LordNecroid 29.September.2009 - 15:37
i also agree you cant just release huge patches once a month you should probably release a patch every week or so fixing bugs before adding new content its more efficient.
By coopkramer 30.September.2009 - 01:45
I don't agree with you. I don't care about how often the patches are released. And I don't care about the current bugs. What I want is for each patch not to create a ton of new and serious bugs. As it is now, Ankama is wasting a lot of money on nothing. Every time a new patch is released, there are new major bugs, which have to be fixed by the next patch. This takes time away from adding new content and fixing bugs that were in the game before.
So to sum it up again: I want each new patch to fix things without creating new major bugs.
By Geki-Killer 30.September.2009 - 08:42
You want the impossible.

I know how hard it can be to add new things and try not to make bugs, I had to program a game for a computer programming class that I took, (And it was only a tiny game, only 1600 lines of code.) and it was impossible to just add something and not have it conflict with previous or current additions.

No patch can be perfect, and I'd say the devs are doing pretty well to have as few bugs as there are. They could never catch every bug even if they read through every line of code that was added. They require outside assistance to look for and spot the bugs so they can fix them. (Personally, I'm happy if each patch doesn't just make the game break.)

Go easy on the devs, they're doing as much as they can to make it work. And unless you want to replace them, I think you should be pretty happy with how things are progressing.
By Magicalgnome 30.September.2009 - 18:51
QUOTE (Magicalgnome @ 30 Sep 2009, 19:53) *
I think you should be pretty happy with how things are progressing.

I am not happy. Far from it. The closed beta was good. The first patch was good, as it didn't create a ton of new bugs. The came the second patch and that is where it all went wrong.
One of my friends is studying programming and he is amazed at how bad Ankama can mess things up. They are using what is called spaghetti code. The first thing my friend learned was structure. If you have that you can avoid creating many new bugs.
By Geki-Killer 30.September.2009 - 19:03
QUOTE (Magicalgnome @ 30 Sep 2009, 19:53) *
You want the impossible.

I know how hard it can be to add new things and try not to make bugs, I had to program a game for a computer programming class that I took, (And it was only a tiny game, only 1600 lines of code.) and it was impossible to just add something and not have it conflict with previous or current additions.

No patch can be perfect, and I'd say the devs are doing pretty well to have as few bugs as there are. They could never catch every bug even if they read through every line of code that was added. They require outside assistance to look for and spot the bugs so they can fix them. (Personally, I'm happy if each patch doesn't just make the game break.)

Go easy on the devs, they're doing as much as they can to make it work. And unless you want to replace them, I think you should be pretty happy with how things are progressing.


HI, I'm studying computer science and I've been toying around with game development for quite a few years now and I have to say that the level at which Ankama is currently releasing patches is unreasonable. Magicalgnome I can accept and understand that you would have lots of problems implementing new features and such in the first game you ever developed but with just a little experience, the kind of bugs that ankama are creating shouldn't be able to occur. Normally when you're developing a game as massive as Wakfu you would have every parameter, class and variable defined on paper to ensure you wouldn't get conflicts in between new functions. UML diagrams would be drawn to show the relationships of each function and what parameters they used to ensure consistency when creating new classes. A professionel programmer wouldn't implement a new function that suddenly impedes AP-bonuses because he would have a clear view of all the classes which interacted with the AP attribute and their function calls. It would be simple to see if any conflicts would arise. Furthermore I imagine they would have some kind of test server besides the one people are playing on to test each new build so they could actually see each change they made and just use at least a few hours on testing the consistency of the entire patch before releasing.

In my opinion Ankama is either, unskilled, unwilling or understaffed because I can't imagine any programmer would release a new implementation of AI without thouroughly testing it on each monster or having a perfect view of what impact the changes made would have on the generel monster population. Replacing something that works with something that doesn't just shouldn't happen. I could understand it if it was entirely new concepts and the bugs where minor but come on?

Anyway, hope Ankama staff listens to a little critique from the english community, cheers
By ThomasPH 30.September.2009 - 19:21
Im not too sure about how they are patching, wakfu seems unstable right now like the versions are different, last night the server restarted. Mining and woodcut were working again, various mobs started grouping together in large groups, with AI working again. Now, wakfu seems to have reverted back to its bugged state, not sure why this is happening. There might be a possiblity that the different groups of people working on wakfu might be using different versions.
By Void-Sama 02.October.2009 - 07:26
QUOTE (Void-Sama @ 2 Oct 2009, 06:28) *
Im not too sure about how they are patching, wakfu seems unstable right now like the versions are different, last night the server restarted. Mining and woodcut were working again, various mobs started grouping together in large groups, with AI working again. Now, wakfu seems to have reverted back to its bugged state, not sure why this is happening. There might be a possibility that the different groups of people working on wakfu might be using different versions.

Errors build up over time. Rounding errors are a common example. So something that works the first time, might break a little the second time, start ceasing up the 3rd time, and completely fail the 4th, etc. Especially when you involved network communications (people make whole theories based on error-checking for stuff like that).

There's a possibility that Ankama is staffed by flying monkeys with typewriters, but it's only something an idiot would think of doing.
By GoldfishGod 02.October.2009 - 09:53
well, you never know?

still i keep having the feeling its a versioning kinda problem, you never know. one dev might have fixed a problem but another might be using a different version and the uploaded version turns out to be a mish-mash.
By Void-Sama 02.October.2009 - 10:14
QUOTE (Void-Sama @ 2 Oct 2009, 09:16) *
still i keep having the feeling its a versioning kinda problem, you never know. one dev might have fixed a problem but another might be using a different version and the uploaded version turns out to be a mish-mash.
Sorry, you're trying to say the vanishing woodcraft, and the mining bug, are because they keep uploading different versions of the server?
By GoldfishGod 02.October.2009 - 10:45
its just a wild guess..but considering the client didnt update..it seems logical..
By Void-Sama 02.October.2009 - 10:49
QUOTE (Void-Sama @ 2 Oct 2009, 09:51) *
its just a wild guess..but considering the client didnt update..it seems logical..

I'll won't bother to repeat what I said in the other thread.

The woodcraft bug is temporarily fixed by quitting the client, and restarting it.
The Mine bug is a bug that occurs due to accumulating up-time on the server. Resetting the server reverts it back to it's initial state, but it will eventually bug again because each time that "mine" action is performed it "partially" malfunctions. When enough "partial" malfunctions have occurred, it becomes a "whole" malfunction.
Both those bugs have existed for multiple version now.

The larger groups of monsters are just due to logic. Large groups are spawned when the server is initialised. The large groups get killed by players, and are continually killed from then on. You won't see a high density of large groups because they do not have a chance to get back to the same levels as when they restart the server.
The AI is current known to work/not work at random. So while you might have observed it "working" after a server-reset, it's just as easy to observe it "working" many hours since.

I don't know what time-zone you're in, so I can't say whether you're actually suggesting Ankama perform server-updates at a time when they've all gone home for the day. But "doing a server update" is not the same as uploading a jpg file, it requires far more effort and is far more problematic, than you appear to think it is. If they're really being that stupid with versioning, I doubt they'd even get beyond basic client updates (since everyone HAS TO be using the same code to connect properly).

I won't even get into the difference between "wild guessing" and "logical" laugh.gif
By GoldfishGod 02.October.2009 - 10:56
gah, no need to be so hostile, although i was kinda expecting the mob's grouping to be more like what ive seen in dofus where the mobs band together after some time. Its a real pain to enter a fight and surprise surprise someone extra was in the fight(not a player).

well, im also hoping ankama does more server restarts to stop the bugs from accumulating too badly, all the not avaliable items as well as dead mobs is an eyesore.
By Void-Sama 02.October.2009 - 17:30
QUOTE (Void-Sama @ 2 Oct 2009, 16:32) *
gah, no need to be so hostile
Keep to jargon/concepts you properly understand (the meaning and the implications) and I won't be so hostile. The last thing we need is someone sending Ankama a bug report about how "the AI server needs to be properly versioned as it's causing bugs with the woodcraft client". tongue.gif
QUOTE
Well, im also hoping ankama does more server restarts to stop the bugs from accumulating too badly, all the not avaliable items as well as dead mobs is an eyesore.
One of the main points of beta is to make a game that needs the minimum amount of maintenance. Daily resets are not a good idea for a final product. Giving in during Beta to keep the game clear of bugs by resetting is essentially removing the opportunity to examine those bugs properly, and to see how they accumulate/progress over time.

They already do a daily reset (weekdays only), any more and they'd spend more time resetting the server than fixing anything.
By GoldfishGod 02.October.2009 - 17:43
though..i seriously doubt they actually do care about our bug reports, just really sick and tired of all the talk about new features when the old ones arent even working in the first place.
By Void-Sama 03.October.2009 - 14:55
I want the ability to make snowmen in wakfu. Demonic, axe wielding snowmen, with dynamite sticks for noses. GIVE ME WHAT I WANT FRENCHMEN.
By TwilightReaper 06.October.2009 - 18:27
I'd do it. That would be awesome.
By Magicalgnome 06.October.2009 - 18:47
Yes. I have an entire box of great ideas. I sell for 1mk.
By TwilightReaper 06.October.2009 - 18:55
I had a huge list of great ideas. And promises. Too bad it was deleted with the old forums. dry.gif
By Magicalgnome 06.October.2009 - 19:14
QUOTE (TwilightReaper @ 6 Oct 2009, 17:57) *
Yes. I have an entire box of great ideas. I sell for 1mk.
They will buy it with 1 million kama. Each Kama will be worth five British pounds. That is the exchange rate that the Bank of England will implement after they kidnap the queen.

I wonder who they have to kidnap to get someone who knows what they're doing more than half the time.
By GoldfishGod 06.October.2009 - 20:44
QUOTE (GoldfishGod @ 6 Oct 2009, 13:46) *
They will buy it with 1 million kama. Each Kama will be worth five British pounds. That is the exchange rate that the Bank of England will implement after they kidnap the queen.

I wonder who they have to kidnap to get someone who knows what they're doing more than half the time.

Ah, kidnapings
. I assume if they kidnap Obama, they will be rife with a powerful desire to CHANGE EVERYTHING and turn Dofus and Wakfu into a single player side scrolling Brawler about cowboys and Indians. This is also something I want.

Magic, all our hopes and dreams were deleted with the old forums. All we have to show for it are...wait, we didn't even get a souvenier for being old fks. I demand a hat/t-shirt to prove my seniority.
By TwilightReaper 07.October.2009 - 22:45
Yeah I got deleted too on the old forums. Yeo-Sang, thats me.

Well the thing now is that the server has alot of memory leaks. So you have to restart the Wakfu client every once a while for it not to eat 100% of your CPU. And I guess it's the same with the server. The longer the uptime, the messier it gets.

Edit: Typos... Don't want a GNazi on me...
By alksdds 07.October.2009 - 23:16
I agree with the demands of a t-shirt/hat. This would please me. (And make me look supremely nerdy.)

By the way, Google still has records of the old forums. I was doing a search on my username and a ton of old posts that no longer exist came up. You can't go to them, but you can read what little bit was floating around.
By Magicalgnome 08.October.2009 - 02:10
I must say, i'm a bit disappointed. When i saw that they were discussing stuff, i hoped that they would discuss something that's appropriate for a game that's in beta. You know, stuff like character, stat and spell levels and how they should work with each other, or how high level dungeons and dungeons are supposed to be like, and equipment, too. Or how PvP, territory conquest and stuff like that should look like. Stuff like plans for what a character can achieve, how a character can evolve their skills, etc.

Then i took a look and all i saw was gimmicks. Like, per example, automatic emotes. Bleh. Or snow... what the heck? There are huge issue with how stats are raised, per example, and they're discussing whether you'll one day be able to make snowmen. Other ideas that were being discussed are mounts, multi-cell monsters, banks, and so on. That's all the kind of stuff you'd put into a finished, well-running game that has no bugs when you're making a major update, but not something you'd discuss when it's not yet clear how exactly the game is supposed to look like.

In my opinion, the whole "Tot's intervention" was a waste of time, i'd be pleased if they would make sure the key concepts of the game are defined and realized in a satisfying way before even thinking about gimmicks like mounts and snow.
By Blazeron 26.October.2009 - 12:16
I personally think that most of you here are just having a winge and sook?

First of all, they are building a very complex game here, unlike anyothers we have seen... Not only do the gamers control the whole world, but the whole eco-system and enviroment is effected by what we do... It's almost as if they were creating a new earth? One person could actually make a server exstinct.

And for all those complaing about how they are not focusing on the so called basics of the game and they are focusing too much on the 'Gimiks'.. Well its like building a home.

You can build a house with the basics that you need to live? 4 walls, a toilet, bath, fridge and some blankets.... But I can assure you if you could then you would make your house as good as you can with all these little extras ... Like 7 T.V's a spa, Pools, Air-con, Alarm Systems, Nice Gardens, Pets, Pictures and deco etc? It's not a home until you make it a home, and if that means for the anakma team to introduce Snow somewhere down the track then so be it yes?

And another thing is that the reason why they release patches is to update and fix the game... Patches don't create bugs at all, they just indentify those that were not visible before hand... In order to advance they have to release patches and fix's.... You can't expect them to just one day release a miracle patch that has absolutely nothing wrong with it.... Even a completed and finished car or house has its errors and bugs, nothings perfect so just let them do their job... Because I'm pretty sure if you were developing the game we would be playing 1970's Atari Tennis. One Ball, 2 lines.

By xFrozenxWondersx 11.November.2009 - 14:39
Ignoring the fact this thread has been dead for months:

QUOTE (xFrozenxWondersx @ 11 Nov 2009, 13:41) *
Patches don't create bugs at all, they just indentify those that were not visible before hand...
That's a bit naive. After all, how could they add new spells which have completely new bugs, if patches didn't add bugs? Or when a perfectly working spell suddenly breaks when no changes have been done to that spell, or anything associated with the spell system?

QUOTE
Because I'm pretty sure if you were developing the game we would be playing 1970's Atari Tennis. One Ball, 2 lines.
Strangely enough, some of us have developed working games. And I'm fairly certain there are other MMOs which Ankama didn't make.

Nobody is complaining that the game has features... but that certain priorities seem to be left behind. Essentially Ankama are installing 7 TVs, a Spa, etc, before they've even put up the walls.
By GoldfishGod 11.November.2009 - 15:36
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